harpermae made the very same point as I did — but more than that, harpermae has lived it. Attack the statement, not the person! The only way that it makes sense to me to allow gender-segregation in sports but not the workplace is to say that there is relevant and substantial difference between the genders and/or sexes as it relates to sports but not the workplace, and it seems that Hj Hornbeck in particular denies that there is a substantial relevant difference with regard to sports between the sexes and/or genders. This is exactly what the restroom enforcers do: “What could possibly go wrong if trans women were allowed to use women’s restrooms? Why would I want expressions of offense to stop? Now, on to the second problem with your position—the arguments you proposed in favor of hormone policing among MTF athletes ooze of transphobia. But this is simply failing to think things through. I’m really curious if you have any response. It may be that the overall population is small enough that it’s not going to lead to the outcome of almost every winner of womens-only sports without a HRT rule being a trans-woman. I just don’t buy it yet. Further more, since late last year, ie predating even the RR crap, the moderation on the AXP blog has been terrible. What you see as patently false, I see as patently true (some men would lie about being a woman for a short time in order to compete in a women’s only event in order to potentially win prize money). I also don’t see the relevance of my blog activity. Bigotry is an extremely common behavior and behaviors are stored in memory. Take gymnastics, for instance. Smaller persons, on average, would have the advantage through such portions of the course. I’m reminded of the “one drop of blood” rule used by racists to determine who was a true white person and whom to exclude. Obviously not, since you still haven’t defined racism or silencing. Then came the trans women in sport and I stopped being a Patron. There are other people who should reasonably demand that. I’m pretty sure that if I posted offensive material here that Dr. Myers would fairly soon (most likely within a week) address my comment and ban me if necessary. I might have to disappoint you here. Not even close. To emphasize: where are the replies to people in this thread who do not make any distinction between the act and the person? There might even be some reason with which I would agree that ability to deadlift should be valued more highly than ability to climb quickly (women often scale climbing walls faster than men b/c it’s easier to lift a smaller body up to the next hold, I don’t know if there’s an empirical study showing we have certainty that the median female ability to climb such walls is better than the median male ability, I’m just using this as a hypothetical because from what I know it might be true). The 14th amendment to the constitution cannot restrict behavior to which the government is not a party. The proper response to being called out for saying something bigoted is not to get defensive and refuse to admit that you could possibly be a bigot. I liked a lot of his lectures on youtube, I mean from Skepticon and the like. QUOTE Should we avoid saying true things that happen to reflect badly on someone in order to preserve freedom of speech? It’s fascinating the way you don’t actually provide the dogma in question. I’m sure an argument can be made that someone who doesn’t believe trans women should be allowed to compete in women’s sports could be trans-phobic especially if they use terms like “protecting women”. I’ve attempted to explain what silencing is to me. No. I remember seeing some info on how Matt Dillahunty went on a full defense of a transphobe, but I did not personally look into it. Now, all that only goes to your question of whether its constitutional. (not saying you did that, just saying that’s where the problem lies). What if the person is, in fact, a murderer? I am now even more firmly convinced that that gap that we see in elite level sports competitions cannot be upbringing and must be biology. https://freethoughtblogs.com/reprobate So sharing links to /search results/ is problematic – they’d only work for folks similarly logged in or not. Nonetheless, there are still huge problems with your suggestion: As for the video, I just got to the 9:09 mark with the comment by Fabian Elfeld. I don’t say that, and quite frankly that would be awful. Labeling someone as BEING a racist etc is an attempt to disqualify them as a person and in effect silence them via social ostricising. I believe the post concerned trans-women competing in the Olympics in women’s events. I used to be a regular poster a couple years ago there but I stopped, not for any issues with them back then, I loved being there but this development doesn’t suprise me at all. Funny how selectively some of you apply your compassion. I don’t usually breach my own determinations, but in this case…. Okay, I take your qualification seriously. It isn’t about her lack of desire to handle my tackle, but about my desire to be handled and waxed. It’s accurate to say bigoted people do bigoted thought and behavior with bigoted beliefs the way illogical people do illogical thought with illogical beliefs and behavior. /r/AtheistExperience/   !=   /r/TheAtheistExperience/ TO. If you continue to have discussions on something so completely irrelevant to your life (but harmful and dangerous to ours) you are moving the discussions away from REAL problems like trans people being openly discriminated basically everywhere, having extremely high suicide rates, getting killed, etc. But if people had been instructed to effectively give the crowd that Woodford’s presence had summoned free reign, then yes that is terrible and speaks to effectively anti-trans moderating policy. If I kick you out of my living room and you no longer debate whatever it was you wanted to debate in my living room, then it wasn’t honest debate in the first place. Perhaps EACH sport will need to change….weight classes, more accurate categories than just men/women x/y… maybe tiered categories based on past performance (like FM/IM/GM in chess) would be better. Hj, out of topic as this is, I feel you deserve a response. So testosterone levels determine who is a real woman? Based on this, our definitions of “racist” cannot include an intent element (or at least not a strict/mandatory one). They’re valuable social information. Blaming a youtuber for their fans is something people disagree about a lot. I will not reply to any more posts that attack the messenger in stead of the message. However, I don’t know if I’ll ever be comfortable and accepting about being told by others (approx) “you’re just going to have to trust us that it’s transphobic, now shut up about it, and you must never talk about it again”. Tracie, in particular, was an excellent host. Their goal is to promote positive atheism and the separation of church and state. But the types of rating systems I’m talking about, in chess and elsewhere, are calculated only from your past performance against other players (who also have their own ratings, obviously). As you can notice, I’m not neatly fitting into the category defined as a “trans male.” Still, I’m definitely not a cis woman either. At some level, there is freedom of association and non-association (but some practices such as refusing business or refusing to lease apartments is clearly discriminatory). My second appearance on the Atheist Experience: https://youtu.be/xkrfG4ToG144). I’ll add that quite frankly, despite your statement of good intentions your position IS transphobic particularly here, since you are essentially arguing that the rights of trans people should be curtailed because non-trans people might abuse the law in some way. Like several other people, I also perceived your words as transphobic or at least harmful for transgender people. Please have a debate! Cool story bro. Presumably not. That being said, I am still disappointed, but not surprised. Even reading many angry denunciations from numerous former moderators, I’ve not managed to find much specificity on why they actually quit. I’m pissed bc I’m embarrassed. I could totally get behind them as I would understand why they value the particular lifting/movement abilities that they do and also I could look at their data and agree (or disagree) that objective measurement shows that Group X is better. Secondly, the general case of this specific rule would make analogous actions like boycotts immoral. The exact definitions of the key words in our discussion would be addressed in the conversation you would have with a person. I would hope you would allow them one more post pre-boot if only to know where they would (if they would) have a forum elsewhere. Eliminate the bigotry. The Atheist Experience is produced by the Atheist Community of Austin. The Atheist Experience is an American live, weekly televised webcast based in Austin, Texas.Listeners—theists and atheists alike though theists are preferred—are encouraged to call in to discuss the existence of God and related topics. All it does it make it harder to criticize people when they genuinely support unjust social power disparities. I agree that certain things that correlate with sex, like height, can be an advantage in some sports, but I note that height is a disadvantage in others. Not everything that comes out of the mouth of the person you accused of saying something wrong is only a defense of what they said. It seems to me to be special pleading to say otherwise. To sum up, you need a definition of “silencing” and a definition of “oppression” (and, since you mentioned them, specific definitions of “racism” and “sexism”). I mean let’s take height for instance. What makes sports special? If you’re on Reddit, join the conversation there https://old.reddit.com/r/AtheistExperience/. ", 3 out of 5 white evangelical Christians are poisonously stupid, I scrutinize our local philosophy offerings with some trepidation, Ken Ham wouldn't know what good science is if it came up & set his Bible on fire, Open thread (for everything but politics). It seems you’re really creating some problems here with the making of accusations before you know someone’s state of mind. One doesn’t invalidate the other, but it’s important to understand each for what it is. It seems that you tacitly accept that the difference in certain sports like the 100 m dash is biological and not upbringing. If feminists whose analysis you trust tell you that I support sexism and sexists, then criticize my sexism or kick me off FtB because of it. We’ve just begun the discussion with our bloggers, but we’d also welcome input from our readers, so leave comments here. Community Service; Committees; Join ACA; About ACA. What do you call it when your concerns are based on denying that trans women are women? I’ve been commenting here for at least 3 years despite having gasp acted like I’m in a religion. Could be coinkydink, but I have noticed that of these small follower count, very few tweet accounts… a lot of the few tweets they’ve made are fawning replies to Seth Andrews. So… criticism is silencing, if you use certain words. I’m mulling over putting brackets around every assertion about people in the male, female, man, woman, cis, trans box and asking where they learned that. I also think it’s more than “slight increase”, because I believe that the difference in athletic competence between cis-men and cis-women at the elite level is gigantic, not small. Do you have a preference? Thanks for your awesome demonstration of compassion Tim! I just don’t know everything yet. The more I learn about it, the more I agree that kicking off the AXP from FTB is warranted. I don’t care if someone tells me they are male or female but I sure as hell have no role in telling someone else if they are male or female. I don’t know if you’re still interested in producing internet content, but if you do have the time and you or other Godless B**ches veterans do want to produce anything remotely resembling GBs, I’ll be waiting eagerly in line to watch. I don’t want to say that the modern definition of “athletics” is completely arbitrary and “unjust”. A bigot is free to continue commentating while I point out bigoted behavior. Without commenting on the AXP’s position, that thread has largely been a shitshow of transphobia. On the beam wide shoulders are worse than wide hips. If there has been concerns about the ACA besides this one incident then the blog should be booted. If he says he’s not and has no wish to be a transphobe or spread transphobia I believe him, even if he has done a rather bad job of this and might have some unacknowedged biases You’re begging the question! Two people have been named about this, as well as Matt being said to be leaning too far one way. Thus, I attempted to query him to explain himself, because it seems that in their world view, the solution should be obvious: abolish the gender-segregation of sports. 182 talking about this. If disengaging is not your style (It’s not mine either.^^) I recommend listening to trans people discussing an issue. It’s old-fashioned atheism advocacy. However, it does seem that my legal understanding of the 14th amendment and human rights would forbid gender-segregation of bathrooms, and HJ, it seems that your understanding of human rights would also require to forbid gender-segregation in sports.”. Judging from PZ’s video in post #15 it looks like the organization is rotting from the top down. Persons who reach elite level competitions of sports are like one of the first groups of people that I would suspect of cheating and having weaker integrity. I don’t see how this could be a cultural phenomenon. If you aren’t arguing for double standards fair enough, but I do take issue with a couple of things you wrote. Even if we were to compare the best adult cis-women to only high school age men athletes, the fastest cis-woman in the world wouldn’t even break the 100 fastest sprinters in the United States (and the real number is possibly much higher). People can still have their opinions about the guy and his research one way or another. 1. What do you mean “simply throwing out terms like ‘transphobic'”? Here: Specifically, their transphobia, and more generally, a reasonable concern that the leadership of that organization has gone off the rails and who knows what crap they’ll be promoting next. This doesn’t, of course, mean that every attempt to identify oppression will be accurate, but only by talking about oppression can we understand what it is, how common it is, and what its effects are in a society. Now I wonder. If you’re a person who pays attention to commenters’ names around here, you’ve probably noticed me and that I have an angry voice I use when people dig in and defend their fuck ups. It seems to me that the growth of the internet fueled the growth of the ACA and that as organizations are wont to do, lost its way. E.g., nobody’s forcing you to go to the Castro in SF. I think you’re probably right. Does he HAVE any other qualifications for leadership? As usual, you get straight to the chewy center when everyone else is still licking around the outside of the analytical tootsie pop. While it seems you’re saying that “athleticism” isn’t perfectly defined, but is well enough defined for your purposes, there’s clearly a great deal of ambiguity in the phrase “elite level sports competitions”. Kellym @ 148. It seems that the only thing that would stop them is social pressure and shaming, or personal integrity, or the great inconvenience of a mandatory rule for hormone replacement therapy. I was a Patreon patron of Rationality Rules. I thought you were leaving? In the comments to the above video, I said I was fine with removing AXP from FtB. Meh. I’ll just be on my way again, unless someone addresses me directly. It’s not as though the new direction was put in place and there have been controversial youtube et al guests appearing more often (or any for that matter). If you can’t do it, then you’re wrong. The variations among different individuals amount to far more than the difference in averages ever could and also nobody talks about the areas where women are superior to men. Incidentally, cis people fearing that trans women might abuse them is silly considering the status quo—right now trans women are the victims who get routinely abused by cis people. I have seen other comments where he repeatedly defended RR and said he wasn’t being transphobic. Just another placeholder gone. Further, cis-women in physical capability too, but no one suggest that two cis-women of different physical capabilities shouldn’t be allowed to compete. (“We’re currently discussing dropping the blog from our network”). It seems to me a chance to correct and improve the concept that started long ago. ), in addition to various leagues as in major and minor league baseball. Nobody is forcing you to watch TV or movies that offend you for these reasons. In how many cases of gender segregation we find the government acting directly to create it, I don’t know. Not an invasion at all. At best you’ve merely articulated one thing (character assassination) that would constitute silencing if it occurred. Since [silencing] is exactly what you are trying to do to me I’ll just feel free to ignore anything else you have to say. “I am really puzzled why you call this a conspiracy.”. I spent some time today bringing myself up to speed on this issue, and I thought I might share a few links that I found helpful. There are loads and loads of men athletes who come close to the men’s record every year, within a few percent or better, and (practically) zero cis-women can do do better than get within approx 10% of the men’s record. If society wanted to value something like a steeplechase but with narrow obstacles that must be quickly squeezed through as well as those objects which must be jumped over, with the hypothetical steeplechase finale drawing in viewership like the current Super Bowl and the hypothetical Super Bowl drawing viewership like the current NCAA women’s softball championship semi-finals, you would tend to think of “elite athletes” as women and tend to think that males are at a competitive disadvantage, because they can never win the really important competitions even if they do well in their own niche sports. And it is. Sorry. Maybe we’ll still have to struggle with the details of Rationality Rules cissexism and the ACA’s support for cissexist arguments where we’re less comfortable judging because we’re acutely aware of our own imperfect knowledge. When I use the word transphobic it’s a characterization with features. There is 100 times more of you than of us, so even if we spend all day to explain why something is transphobic, there will always be five more people to drop in to say “huh, I can’t see any transphobia at all! Because that’s not the case. “I am enjoying this conversation despite being accused of ‘poisoning the well’”. In football women can no longer compete when we would expect, post puberty. Sports is (ought to be) here to serve humanity, and not the other way around. I’ve Been Denounced by the ACA (Atheist Community of Austin) With the unnecessary-to-regulars or our host disclaimer that I am an older white(ish) straight vanilla uninvested cis introverted man (phew!) So (and did I mention I think the 2nd amendment is obsolete, stupid and should be repealed?) Facts is facts, snowflake. In case you are interested and really want to learn more about discrimination, here are the links: https://andreasavester.com/why-businesses-should-not-be-allowed-to-deny-service-to-customers-based-on-personal-religious-beliefs/ Whether it’s weight classes or some other things, I kind of trust sporting organizations to figure it out. As for the AXP blog comments section, it is barely moderated and, perhaps most importantly, dud not purport to be moderated. However, it was a single fight, and I don’t even know the quality of the opponent. You came onto an atheist site, and rather than present an argument against my position you accused me of “acting like a religious person” that’s the dictionary definition of a well poisoning argument. I’m very disheartened by the divisions I’m seeing here. I have gotten the impression that you lack education about trans issues. https://andreasavester.com/dont-patronize-the-minorities/ You just don’t think trans women are women — that’s your true unease. It’s not the worst thing I have heard, and, frankly, most MTF athletes would probably want to use hormones anyway. I need a way of reminding myself to review. I’ve seen these arguments many times before, and when they are able to be traced to their root (which isn’t often, I grant) they typically devolve to something like this: Racism is, like, super evil. I never, ever do, nor have I ever so done. That’s basically what you sound like. Imagine you’ve got strong, smart feminists in your organization who have provided the backbone on which your organization built a somewhat more women-inclusive organization out of one that only had men on screen in its earliest days. Now, it regards to your other comments (from your #135): There have been posts in this thread defending calling a person racist/sexist immediately when they utter something they consider racist/sexist. Again, nearly no one admits to bigoted intent. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says. In fact there is no “legitimate” debate to be had about transwomen participating in women’s sports. I also saw him achieve a number of firsts in his sport – though these were firsts for his then-league, not world firsts. Just don’t skip the steps. In fact there are several Olympic sports where the women’s division had a higher record than the men’s for a while. You know, actual real discussion rather than commentariat time wasting. I was raised by racists, in a racist place, and I’m surrounded by racist media and culture day in and day out. 2- Every year, plenty of men athletes beat the women’s Olympic record for most sports https://freethoughtblogs.com/reprobate/2019/04/07/essenceofthought-on-trans-athletes/, https://freethoughtblogs.com/reprobate/2019/06/27/special-pleading/, https://andreasavester.com/why-businesses-should-not-be-allowed-to-deny-service-to-customers-based-on-personal-religious-beliefs/, https://andreasavester.com/dont-patronize-the-minorities/, https://andreasavester.com/facebook-hates-transgender-people-or-why-i-got-forbidden-from-having-a-facebook-account/, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Dillahunty, https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Matt_Dillahunty, https://old.reddit.com/r/AtheistExperience/. Don’t talk nonsense. This was what’s known as a “friendly” game, which means the USWNT was not trying to win. Have you looked at the actual data? Why is he so popular/important? sports. But what if the people who left started a ‘more perfect union’ better designed with stronger policies to prevent dehumanization. Thankfully you don’t seem to veer into the conspiracy I sometimes hear about cis men pretending to be trans to compete since there is no evidence of that ever happening. I’ve been deliberately focusing on Rationality Rules instead of the ACA, but I’ve heard hints of these issues since May. I’ve been reading Pharyngula for about ten years. If there were enough obstacles that created small-person advantages, there would (by definition of “enough”) be a net benefit to small persons, even while other portions of the race track allow long-legged persons (who are, on average, larger bodied) some net benefit during that portion of the race. That inability shows a sloppiness of thought that pervades recent conversations about athletics, sport, and sex. I actually have no problem saying this for certain specific, operational definitions of “athleticism”. ”. More than once, even. But criticisms? To add quickly before bed; Woodford does come across as a sort of a smug guy with that impregnable sheen of rationalist righteousness. Won’t somebody think of my rights as a woman to have my balls waxed by a woman in her own home if she offers the service to women? It has never happened, but transphobes still use this extremely unlikely imaginary scenario as a justification for why trans people should be abused. This IS about effect for me. Disclaimer: I consider myself to be a supporter of trans-rights, and I have no intention to propose any changes to sports policies because 1- I don’t know enough, and 2- I’d rather real stakeholders, the women, figure it out, and I don’t want to mansplain to them. @erik333 42 https://freethoughtblogs.com/reprobate/2019/06/27/special-pleading/, I just had a semi-troll ask a related question to me on Ed Brayton’s blog, and now I will ask it to you, because I’m curious of your reaction. I guess I just don’t see it as factually wrong. You are totally right that many trans-women would take standard hormone replacement therapy anyway. Moreover, while my brother was amazing on the floor, women’s floor exercise has certain required elements and scoring elements that are different from those required for men & boys, and they would on average disadvantage men and boy competitors. As to whether international human rights treaties allow for situational gender segregation, that’s a factual question and the answer is yes, including in sport. This is only a problem without a hormone therapy rule for participation by trans-women, and so this problem doesn’t exist in the real world because most (all?) The ACA serves the local Austin community through outreach programs, providing informational resources and various volunteer activities. And to clarify, if a person keeps repeating the same thing you told them was racist/sexist etc, then you can call them on it and label it as such! I don’t like this hypothetical outcome for an unusual reason. You see your imaginary worst case scenario as likely to happen, but trans people themselves see it as laughable and near impossible. Whether or not someone is racist is a factual question. Certainly not anti- trans. the regular poster in the AXP blog on FTB named [“RationalismRules”] is not the same person as “Rationality Rules” of Youtube. I’m really starting to understand what this side means when they say “trans-women are women”. In a perfect world (and I was more of an idealist then) I could imagine allowing Mims to write columns as long as they presented competent science, which he was clearly capable of doing in areas that did not touch on biology.

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