I feel it would be more obvious. So, I think I deserve a little slack. The whole discussion is completely unnecessary, as there are almost no trans people in sports, and no trans women winning something with whatever unfair advantage someone claims they have. (Not saying you don’t deserve your place here, or that you are not justified, I hope you get that). Dunno. It is entirely posible to do/say things that are homophobic/transpohbic/racist/sexist or just about any other flavor of bigotry without any malicious intent, because it’s not about intent it’s about effect. I don’t see how this could be a cultural phenomenon. The Atheist Community of Austin is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated to promoting positive atheism and the separation of church and state. (Thankfully you don’t seem to veer into the conspiracy I sometimes hear about cis men pretending to be trans to compete since there is no evidence of that ever happening) but I would add that this is just another qualifier to add to the 3 I’ve already mentioned. They are a valuable community resource. If someone called me a racist because just because I said one racist thing, I’d have to admit that they’re right. (PZ too.). This is just absolutely funny. But it’s interesting that you mention Elevatorgate, CFI, etc., because we did have a board member resign (twice) because he ran into a brick wall (me) when he tried to malign women who recounted experiences with sexism and abuse in atheist groups. This also, by the way, eliminates Tuvix’s concern: I think looking at effect, not intent leads to exactly the same sort of problem that you get when religious people call something ‘sacred’ and then calling you names if you dare to question it.   If a bunch of people all lynch someone because their afraid other people will know that deep down they don’t hate black people if they don’t join in, the lynching is racist. This is about some transphobic nonsense wrapped in a heavy layer of paternalism, all of which causes real harm to an already marginalized community. The thing with RR as a guest is a cascading series of errors. “You are totally right that many trans-women would take standard hormone replacement therapy anyway. Most of this would not even be considered. OK, so your argument is that cis people are going to pretend to be a member of a group that are often straight up killed, beat, and otherwise mocked and mistreated to give them what would probably only amount to a slight increase in their chance of winning. It is an absolute pisser. I have a lot of thinking to do. ACA’s official subreddit has “the” in it. You don’t get to magically reject them just because you’re embarrassed by them. But since we’re here, you might as well know that per SCOTUS the constitution does distinguish between racial segregation and gender segregation. I also saw him achieve a number of firsts in his sport – though these were firsts for his then-league, not world firsts. I wonder if other states have non-profits running K-12 competitions the way Oregon does, or if other states have government-chartered organizations (similar to special boards created to regulate industries) that are created by law and whose members are nominated by an executive official (or even directly elected, like state utility regulatory commissions sometimes, but not always, acquire their directors). You’re free to speak, you’re not free to speak in my living room. I went to bed so I missed a lot of this conversation but I did want to respond to several things in your response directed towards me. A couple of points to clarify: When I bring up these ructions of the past it’s because the accounts by some people use language of that sort ( maybe not “old”, but skeptic dudebros gets thrown around) and in those instances there was far greater clarity in what harm was done and what the positions of your DJ Grothe and the like actually were. I can ask here or there. Take a step back and realize that if you really believe that racism can only exist where there is malicious racial prejudice, you’re going to have to give up on ideas like “accidental racism” in order to convince others. Calling for a boycott would be wrong because other people might actually be convinced by your words to see the target of the boycott in the same way you do. But at the same time, there are games and categories which are “open” to everyone. Since the vast majority of sport is overseen by governing bodies that are private, non-profit corporations (like the NCAA or its K-12 school equivalent in Oregon, the OSAA) or private, for-profit corporations (e.g. I know that you cited a counter-example, a man boxer who was assigned female at birth, and who won professional fight. Meh. If I kick you out of my living room and you no longer debate whatever it was you wanted to debate in my living room, then it wasn’t honest debate in the first place. Several times. Since [silencing] is exactly what you are trying to do to me I’ll just feel free to ignore anything else you have to say. The problem is that it is an infinite regress. Nobody is forcing you to watch TV or movies that offend you for these reasons. They should stop policing our restroom usage. Not even close. Yet, my official position right now concerning gender-segregation of sports and bathrooms is “I don’t see any noticable portion of people on any side of the issue who want to do away with this gender-segregation, and I think that doing away with the gender-segregation here would produce worse outcomes for almost everyone, and so I don’t advocate for removing these cases of gender-segregation. The problem in your eyes is that our society values “athletics” more than other sorts of physical stuff that women would be better at, such as certain kinds of gymnastics and fitting through small holes. Really, if changing a URL was all that was required to stifle dissent, then Pharyngula has been a whole-lot-a-stifled since ScienceBlogs made PZ’s writing unwelcome almost a decade ago. First was one on Brexit where he claimed that democracy demands that a decision made, no matter how flawed, no matter how long it takes to learn new data, no matter how much circumstances have changed, must be followed through before new decisions are made. He had that buff gymnastics build like you wouldn’t believe. The matters being talked about are still subjects of debate in the trans community itself as far as I can tell. The Atheist Community of Austin is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated to promoting positive atheism and the separation of church and state. I haven’t paid attention to the Atheist Experience in years. It seems like a clear case for dropping them. You said: It is the combination of assertions of objective truth with the assertions of differences in athleticism by sex that creates the problems. Dear cis people, There are also references made to changes in moderation policy that spurred people to quit (this might be the conversation in question). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Dillahunty If they had who did it? In your category, stage, league, format, division? Outwardly the content doesn’t seem to have altered much and the Rationality Rules incident seems like an unpleasant outlier. Caveat: There was a site redesign somewhat recently, which applies when logged in (rolling out to select users I guess?). To emphasize: where are the replies to people in this thread who do not make any distinction between the act and the person? While it seems you’re saying that “athleticism” isn’t perfectly defined, but is well enough defined for your purposes, there’s clearly a great deal of ambiguity in the phrase “elite level sports competitions”. Well, a trans woman might rape a cis woman in a restroom. I guess sometimes I pretend that it was otherwise because that’s how it should have happened. About ACA; Latest Updates; History of the ACA; Position Statements; Press Releases; Affiliations; Testimonials; Board of Directors; Request Information; Policies; Corporate Documents; Resources. And this is just the legal tip of the iceberg. Just… interesting, huh? As Jen (I think) said it: They’re beyond remedy. Rationality Rules recanted, corrected and expanded on his original video, in ways that I think were still controversial (I haven’t paid close attention to the reaction there). There is a heuristic called Betteridge’s law of headlines, to the effect that” Pfft, what? I don’t support anyone peddling the “think of the wominfolk” and the amusing sentiment that they need to be defended from the mythical super women coming to snatch their medals. not-Stephen. Insinuating the idea that AXP doesn’t have the knowledge and/or volunteers to start a blog someplace else if they’re not blogging here is the worse than any insult anyone upset about the Rationality Rules debacle has ever levied against them. Just about whether commenters want to express a view on the circumstances applicable, which is nice of FtB to do], “I agree on most points, and I disagree that my concerns are just cover for transphopbia.”. If people who don’t dope still manage to win competitions despite cheaters it seems hard to believe that trans people are going to destroy the whole system. Did you enjoy using me for your tool in this situation? @starfleetdude 26 My mind hasn’t changed. I will miss Tracie, Jen and the others. Different people will have different answers, and no position is special. Further, cis-women in physical capability too, but no one suggest that two cis-women of different physical capabilities shouldn’t be allowed to compete. Not about sports, either. Were you under the impression that only atheists are allowed to comment here? Sorry. Kinda?). They’re telling you that you’re doing it wrong, and your organization’s response is to spend what looks to outsiders to be more effort in maintaining your relationship with Rationality Rules than in maintaining your relationships with the women who have made your organization stronger, more feminist, more thoughtful, and just plain better. I am enjoying this conversation despite being accused of ‘poisoning the well’ and ‘not thinking things through’ by people who misrepresent what I wrote by directly implying the opposite of what I stated. That is not a discussion, it is a name calling contest (and a one sided one I might add! That’s the meat of what this thread is about to me. I think – and you can disagree of course, but I think that an obstacle course race like a Steeplechase is indeed “athletic” and “a sport”. I just do not share any sort of fear that trans women are going to destroy the participation of cis-women in sports. In itself, suggesting that trans women athletes should be required to use hormone replacement therapy wouldn’t be that bad. The board’s demographic has shifted since then, but the attitude toward trans people was obvious to those of us at the election and it’s obvious from the board’s actions since then. There are other corners of the internet that can surely benefit from your brilliant powers of deduction so go now before someone else acts “religious” without your correction. https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/accusations-fly-at-human-rights-hearing-into-transgender-womans-brazilian-wax-complaint, [Quietude? Do you have any idea what you’re saying? Or is it possible that unjust power disparities also cause actual silencing, not merely unpopularity, and that because of that a true anti-silencing position must necessarily be anti-oppression, meaning, not least, that it must encourage people to call out and criticize oppression and its perpetrators when someone sees them. While “Rationality Rules” and some of his supporters in the ACA seem to have gotten a few things wrong, they’ve not been given the time and space needed to grow and learn — nor has genuine gestures showing desire to learn and grow on this front been accepted and embraced. Stop trying to exclude women from participation in sports. If I support racists and racism, then criticize my racism or kick me off FtB because of it. Let me make a couple of general points. This can get a tricky. No, he wasn’t Olympics-ready yet, though just before his injury he was one of a handful of favorites to win the NCAA men’s all-around that year, which is saying a lot because men gymnasts’ athletic peak is usually post-college in the mid-20s, and so gymnasts at the NCAAs usually get better every year and being a favorite before you hit your senior year is a big deal. OK. It seems to me a chance to correct and improve the concept that started long ago. Or is otherwise privileged to know information you don’t have, even if just by reading articles you haven’t read yet? and that is the exact step you are skipping if you simply call the person a racist/sexist. There may be a reasonable and successful argument that AXP’s blog should be removed because of cissexism. now even more firmly convinced that that gap that we see in elite level sports competitions cannot be upbringing and must be biology. Muggsy Bogues was a freak of nature, but he did prove that a 5′ 3″ player could enter the starting lineup on an NBA team and contribute valuable minutes. Cis people should just stop policing our bodies. From birth “male” and “female” people are differently socially supported when it comes to sports, physical activity, and general assertiveness (testosterone is a social hormone, everyone must address this!). https://twitter.com/search-home Atheist podcast from north Texas. Ick. Oh and addressing Pascal’s wager. Why, you ask? Asserting “your actions in this case are racist”? Blaming a youtuber for their fans is something people disagree about a lot. I learned a lot. “In this situation I treat negative feelings about trans people as a group (trans women here) as a thing to be investigated.” That’s important, it’s a political behavior to me. Asked a clear question about the dogma Jen and Tracie was claimed to have and ended up having to hear what was this months the one true woman making thing. I’m a racist. There aren’t that many of us to begin with, and given the normal variation of athletic talent and drive among all humans the very small percentage of people who are 1. trans women, 2. naturally athletic to a level that no cis woman could achieve, and 3. actually have a desire to be a professional athlete, has to be incredibly small, though I couldn’t venture to guess at the exact numbers. I don’t know how to square that with the facts as I understand them, which are: Is sport about getting the best score under artificial conditions? I still don’t really understand it all, but Tracie’s comments in the video help me understand at least partially. END QUOTE The might have a valid point and simply have expressed it badly. The recent leadership even stepped down. Are you downplaying the importance of rehashing everything in The God Delusion and End of Faith? Regarding the rest of your post, it seems to be to be targeted towards a person who has concerns other than my own. Maybe we’ll still have to struggle with the details of Rationality Rules cissexism and the ACA’s support for cissexist arguments where we’re less comfortable judging because we’re acutely aware of our own imperfect knowledge. I’m sure this will seem a faint and subjective defense. Because I assure you that I have. I don’t think being absolutist about this is possible, let alone reasonable. I don’t usually breach my own determinations, but in this case…. Having said that, if Tracie and Jen and Claire started blogging here… I’d visit every day. The most prominent women, the longest serving women, the reliably feminist women in your organization then leave. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says. it seems to me to be a form of “special pleading” to say that gender-segregation is allowed for sports but not in the workplace, in the context of the worldview of some of my conversation partners. Now you’ve gone and introduced accurate information into the thread! And for the record building back what I lost (ability to socially confront individual people when needed) is easier than learning the new thing (writing for the group) when it comes to severe social anxiety. Simply tell the about the effect it had on you and watch for the reaction they give before crying foul! NOT. I might be most successful from arguing from the perspective of physical health and physical fitness, which seems to be tightly related to how I defined “athleticism”. I’m free to think that you’re a jerkface and you’re free to think I’m a jerkface. At 15 years old elite regional boys teams are too fast, big and strong for even the national womens team to compete. What if the person is, in fact, a murderer? In short, who the fuck are you to decide that someone else hasn’t given thought to their position? If you’re driving away the iconic feminists of your own organization in the name of building a community where more diverse voices can be heard, you’re doing something seriously wrong. I’m specifically not arguing about trans athletes right to participate in sport because of problems with that, but I will note that the reason this is of note in this specific thread is because people are consistently pushing the idea of a general “MtF trans advantage” in sport without ever bothering to consider that if you transition at 18 you’re already too old to have a career in women’s gymnastics. You’re not without a guide star. Even though majority of trans athletes probably would want to get hormones anyway, it is still better not to pass laws and regulations that enforce what they can or cannot do. For those of us still living in the Christian-dominated near-theocracies of the southern United States, seeing this petty conflict is quite disheartening. I do not object to calling a statement racist/sexist, but I do to calling a PERSON a racist/sexist for just uttering someTHING you think (legitimately or illegitimately) is racist/sexist. However, even this could be countered by saying that “athleticism” is a cultural construct which could have been defined historically in a way to (unjustly) favor men. Well, you have to look at both, but you don’t have to look at both to determine whether or not something is racist. And given the full set of functions associated with these hormones, the way female people are forced to have a maximum testosterone level, and the amount of bullshit present in social assumptions I think I would be justified. @erik333 42 OK, let me address each of these questions separately. I feel the type of affection I always feel for those who take the time to teach me things and that extended very much to you, Tracie, and John I. But these are details that I would hope were known and considered by anyone passing judgement on the ACA as an organisation. I was hoping to get secondary confirmation from other sources, and, well, I now have it in abundance. But it has been pretty atrocious for a while forum wise. @29 Harpermae Your entire dismissal of Reprobate Spreadsheet is “debate me you coward”. Because of that I make people uncomfortable because the politics demands that take overt dispositions towards things in public whenever possible. There is 100 times more of you than of us, so even if we spend all day to explain why something is transphobic, there will always be five more people to drop in to say “huh, I can’t see any transphobia at all! The variations among different individuals amount to far more than the difference in averages ever could and also nobody talks about the areas where women are superior to men. It has never happened, but transphobes still use this extremely unlikely imaginary scenario as a justification for why trans people should be abused. https://freethoughtblogs.com/reprobate/2019/06/27/special-pleading/ So… criticism is silencing, if you use certain words. Not my cup of tea. I once thought that if I had to live in Texas I might at least be comfortable with Austin. I also don’t see the relevance of my blog activity. More than once, even. I think there a couple problems here. Because to people who spend their lives working on issues of oppression, the academics, the long time activists, the ethics consultants, a racist is as a racist does, and waiting for some special knowledge of a person’s motivation just means delaying fixing the actual problems oppression creates. And you still haven’t made even a token effort to articulate who would enforce this rule and how. With respect to blog activity, it looks like you are putting your entertainment ahead of dealing with a social problem other people are dealing with. The proper response to being called out for saying something bigoted is not to get defensive and refuse to admit that you could possibly be a bigot. In many countries, trans people must get themselves surgically sterilized before they are allowed to legally change their gender. I could totally get behind them as I would understand why they value the particular lifting/movement abilities that they do and also I could look at their data and agree (or disagree) that objective measurement shows that Group X is better.

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